在美国广播公司的独家采访中，前副总统迈克·彭斯对前总统唐纳德·特朗普可能被捕表示不满并且扩展了关于他的前老板和国会暴动的尖锐评论以及他在考虑2024年总统竞选时对国家未来的愿景。
在…里周日播出的爱荷华州得梅因的静坐示威彭斯告诉美国广播公司(ABC)“本周”联合主播乔纳森·卡尔(Jonathan Karl)，特朗普对1月6日的处理是这个国家需要“新的开始”的原因之一，或许更尖锐的是，共和党人需要“新的开始”。
“总统错了。那天他错了...我其实希望他能及时醒悟，乔恩，他会看到他身边的法律顾问干部把他引入了歧途，”彭斯在卡尔播放了特朗普为暴徒辩护的片段后说。“但他没有这样做，我认为这是这个国家想要一个新的开始的原因之一。”
彭斯一直在全国各地旅行，最近出版了一本回忆录，他毫不避讳地建议他的政党应该在其他地方寻找白宫候选人，他一再表示，他相信会有比特朗普“更好的选择”，尽管他说他尚未决定是否参选。
他告诉卡尔任何假设的支持特朗普在2024年的竞选中虽然他不排除这种可能性，但再次表明美国人民将有其他选择。
“我们将作为一个家庭来决定我们是否愿意成为他们中的一员，但我认为不同的时代需要不同的领导，”彭斯说。
“我认为美国人民渴望最高领导层关注影响他们生活的问题。此外，我认为他们渴望领导人能够信守我们的最高传统。
但他对具体何时宣布仍含糊其辞。他说，他和他的家人希望在春天做出决定，但当卡尔跟进时，他犹豫了，只是补充说，在“祈祷的考虑”中，他越来越“接近”
2021年11月30日，美国前副总统迈克·彭斯在全国记者俱乐部发表演讲。
德鲁·安格雷尔/盖蒂图片社
1月6日问责制
自2021年离任以来，彭斯一直努力在1月6日的暴力事件以及推翻2020年总统大选的相关努力方面与特朗普划清界限。与此同时，他表示，他仍然为政府的工作和立法成就感到自豪——在减税、军费开支、边境等方面——他在接受美国广播公司新闻采访时重申了这一点，就在几天前，他再次谴责特朗普围绕国会山袭击事件的选择。
彭斯在华盛顿的白领烤架晚宴上发表讲话时表示，“历史将让唐纳德·特朗普为1月6日负责。”
虽然这一事件没有被记录下来，但他的引语被在场的记者发表了——他在“本周”的采访中走得更远。
“我们都面临着历史的审判，我相信历史迟早会让唐纳德·特朗普(Donald Trump)为1月6日的事件负责，其他涉案人员也是如此，”他说。
卡尔问他:“在哪些方面?”
“这将是历史的判决，我真的相信。我也认为美国人民也会有他们的发言权。“我的意思是，总统现在再次成为了办公室的候选人，他正在竞选，但是当我走遍全国时，我确信美国人民已经从那一天吸取了教训。”
彭斯说，他对发生的事情有自己的强烈感受，但在权衡潜在的竞选活动时，他似乎将这一点放在一边，以传达更广泛的信息。
“那天我很生气。虽然我相信宽恕，但我已经为此努力了一段时间。那天总统让我失望了。...但老实说，那天的情绪，从那以后的情绪，我只是没有时间去体会。对我来说，在这个[拜登]政府的失败政策下，我们今天面临的问题太多了，我没有太多时间回顾过去。”
当卡尔追问他是否仍然认为特朗普是一个说话算数的人时，彭斯承认，他个人对特朗普有些失望，尽管他相信两人兑现了政府的承诺。
“一个问题接着一个问题，我看到总统信守他对美国人民的承诺，我很自豪这四年来和他站在一起。我知道这冒犯了国家媒体的一些人，乔恩，”彭斯说。
“就像我在书中写的那样，我为我们政府的记录感到无比自豪，”他说，尽管他承认，“结果并不好，以争议告终。”
卡尔回到这个问题:“我不是问你关于记录的问题。我在问你那个人。”
“我对总统在1月6日之前和1月6日的言论和行为深感失望。...我仍然感到失望的是，总统没有看清自己的道路，知道在上帝的恩典下，我们那天尽到了我们的职责。
彭斯说，尽管他与特朗普私下交谈，但国会大厦发生的事情变成了一个转折点。
“当总统承诺(在1月6日之后)和平移交权力时，当他谴责国会大厦的暴力时，我认为我们回到了正轨，在接下来的一周我们会说话，我非常直接地告诉他我的经历，我对此的看法，以及我认为我已经尽了我的责任，我们友好而尊重地分手了，”他说。“但在接下来的几个月里，他又回到了1月6日之前使用的那套说辞，这套说辞一直延续到今天，这就是我们分道扬镳的原因。”
作为对彭斯Gridiron言论的回应，特朗普告诉记者，由于彭斯作为参议院主席拒绝停止总统选举结果的认证，他对骚乱负有一定责任。
特朗普还打击了彭斯在共和党初选选民调查中的落后人气。
特朗普上周在飞往爱荷华州的飞机上对一群记者说:“我听到了他的声明，我猜他认为做好人不起作用，因为他在民调中只有3%，所以他认为他可能不会再做好人了。”
共和党在乌克兰问题上的分歧
特朗普不是唯一一个与彭斯有明显分歧的共和党人。关于俄罗斯的入侵，他对比了自己的观点佛罗里达州州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯和像他这样的共和党人他们对美国援助乌克兰表示怀疑，因为他们正在抵御俄罗斯的入侵。
德桑蒂斯最近称这次入侵为“领土争端”。彭斯向卡尔强调，他认为与乌克兰人站在一起至关重要。
“乌克兰战争不是领土争端。这是俄罗斯入侵。“这只是俄罗斯试图用武力重新划定国际边界的最新例子，”他说，“美国必须继续加快步伐，向乌克兰军方提供他们需要的支持，以击退俄罗斯的入侵，而赌注是如此之高。”
虽然他说过共和党没有“普京辩护者”的位置，但彭斯没有进一步点名批评德桑蒂斯。然而，他补充说，“我们党内有人认为美国在乌克兰没有重大利益，但我有不同的看法，”他说，他认为德桑蒂斯在这件事上的观点“是错误的。”
卡尔问彭斯，他对特朗普最近关于乌克兰的评论有何看法，他呼吁停火，这可能会保持目前的现状，俄罗斯控制着乌克兰的一些土地。
“无论是特朗普总统还是我们党内的其他人，都有人认为我们面前有一些选择，而不是让乌克兰有能力抗击并赢得俄罗斯的入侵。彭斯说:“我认为，我们必须坚定立场，继续向乌克兰军方提供他们击退俄罗斯入侵所需的资源。这将是确保乌克兰和东欧和平与稳定的最快途径。”
特朗普可能被捕
彭斯和特朗普在一个主要领域看法一致:特朗普可能被捕。
特朗普周六早上在社交媒体平台上声称，他将于周二被拘留，与曼哈顿地区检察官对封口费在2016年总统大选前向斯托米·丹尼尔斯支付费用的调查有关。特朗普还呼吁他的支持者抗议。
他否认有不当行为，包括否认与丹尼尔斯有染，但承认他付钱给她-一度辩护说这是“名人和富人中非常常见的”
特朗普的一名发言人在本周末的一份后续声明中似乎收回了他的逮捕言论，部分表示，没有通知特朗普可能在周二被捕，而且“特朗普正在正确地强调他的无辜和我们不公正体系的武器化。”
彭斯向卡尔重复了这一点。
“这就像是一场充满政治色彩的起诉。对我来说，我只是觉得这不是美国人民想要看到的。
他说，他认为特朗普“在被证明有罪之前是无辜的。”
卡尔问彭斯他对特朗普呼吁抗议他应该被拘留的反应-这与特朗普在1月6日之前和期间推动抗议相呼应。
彭斯没有否认特朗普的呼吁，称“美国人民有和平集会的宪法权利”，尽管他强调任何示威都应该“以和平和合法的方式”进行。
美国广播公司新闻尚未证实特朗普的说法。
虽然曼哈顿地区检察官阿尔文·布拉格(Alvin Bragg)的办公室没有发表评论，但他在一封发给员工的电子邮件中写道，“我们不容忍恐吓我们办公室或威胁纽约法治的企图。”
彭斯告诉卡尔说:“我知道特朗普总统可以照顾好自己，如果事实上起诉下来，这个过程将会结束。”“但我必须告诉你，我们看到的政治化...对数百万希望看到法律面前人人平等的美国人来说，这是一个令人深感不安的问题。”
Mike Pence says voters are ready to move past Trump for a 'fresh start'
In an exclusive ABC News interview, former Vice President Mike Penceexpressed dissatisfaction with the possible arrest of former President Donald Trumpand expandedon pointed remarks regarding his former boss and the Capitol insurrection-- as well as his vision for the future of the country as he mulls a potential 2024 presidential bid.
Ina sit-down in Des Moines, Iowa, that aired Sunday, Pence told ABC "This Week" co-anchor Jonathan Karl that Trump's handling of Jan. 6 was one of the reasons the country and, perhaps more pointedly, Republicans need a "fresh start."
"The president's wrong. He was wrong that day and ... I had actually hoped that he would come around in time, Jon, that he would see that the cadre of legal advisers that he surrounded himself with had led him astray," Pence said after Karl played a clip of Trump defending the rioters. "But he hasn't done so and it's, I think, it's one of the reasons why the country just wants a fresh start."
Pence, who has been traveling across the country and recently released a memoir, has not been shy in suggesting that his party should be looking elsewhere for candidates for the White House, repeatedly saying he's confident there will be "better choices" than Trump even as he says he has not yet made a decision about running himself.
He told Karl that any hypothetical supportfor Trump in the 2024 raceis "yet to be seen" -- though he wouldn't rule it out while once again indicating there will be other options for the American people.
"We're going to decide as a family whether we offer ourselves as one of them, but I think different times call for different leadership," Pence said.
"I think the American people long for leadership at the highest level that's focused on the issues that are affecting their lives. And also, I think they longed for leadership that will keep faith with our highest traditions," he said.
But he remained vague about when, specifically, he might announce. He has said that he and his family hope to come to a decision by the spring but when Karl followed up, he demurred, only adding that he's getting "closer" amid "prayerful consideration."
Jan. 6 accountability
Since leaving office in 2021, Pence has worked to separate himself from Trump regarding the violence of Jan. 6 and the related push to overturn the 2020 presidential election. At the same time, he has said he remains proud of the administration’s work and legislative accomplishments -- on lowering taxes, on military spending, on the border and more -- which he reiterated in his ABC News interview, only days after again rebuking Trump's choices around the Capitol attack.
Speaking at the white-tie Gridiron Dinner in Washington, Pence said earlier this month that "history will hold Donald Trump accountable for Jan. 6."
While the event wasn't recorded, his quotes were published by journalists present -- and he went further in his "This Week" interview.
"We all face the judgment of history, and I believe in the fullness of time that history will hold Donald Trump accountable for the events of Jan. 6, as it will other people that were involved," he said.
Karl asked him: "In what ways?"
"Well it will be the judgment of history, I truly believe it. And I also think the American people will also have their say," Pence said. "I mean the president is now a candidate for office again, he's running for election, but as I go around the country, I'm convinced the American people have learned the lessons of that day."
Pence said he had his own strong feelings about what happened but seemed to set that aside for a broader message as he weighs a potential campaign.
"I was angry that day. And while I believe in forgiveness, I've been working hard at that for a while. The president let me down that day. ... But to be honest with you, the emotions of that day, the emotion since, I just haven't had time for it. To me, there's just too many issues that we're facing this country today under the failed policies of this [Biden] administration that I don't have a lot of time for looking backwards."
When pressed by Karl if he still finds Trump to be a man of his word, Pence conceded that he holds some disappointment in Trump personally, despite believing the pair delivered on their administration's promises.
"One issue after another, I saw the president keep the word that he made to the American people and I was proud those four years to stand with him. And I know that grates on some people in the national media, Jon," Pence said.
"As I wrote in my book, I'm incredibly proud of the record of our administration," he said, though he acknowledged, "It didn't end well, ended in controversy."
Karl returned to the question: "I'm not asking you about the record. I'm asking you about the man."
"I was deeply disappointed with the president's words and conduct in the days leading up to Jan. 6 and on Jan. 6. ... And I continue to be disappointed in the fact that the president has not seen his way clear to know that by God's grace, we did our duty that day," he said.
What happened at the Capitol turned into a breaking point, Pence said, despite his private conversations with Trump.
"When the president committed to a peaceful transfer of power [right after Jan. 6], when he condemned the violence at the Capitol, I thought we were back on track and in the week that followed we would we spoke, I was very direct with him about my experience, and my view of it, and my belief that I'd done my duty, and we parted amicably and respectfully," he said. "But in the months that followed, he returned to that that same rhetoric he was using before Jan. 6, rhetoric that continues much up to this day, and that's why we've gone our separate ways."
In response to Pence's Gridiron remarks, Trump told reporters that Pence shoulders some blame for the riot due to his refusal as president of the Senate to halt the certification of the presidential election results.
Trump also knocked Pence's lagging popularity in surveys of Republican primary voters.
"I heard his statement, and I guess he decided that being nice isn't working because he's at 3% in the polls, so he figured he might as well not be nice any longer," Trump told a group of reporters aboard his plane en route to Iowa last week.
GOP divisions on Ukraine
Trump is not the only other Republican with whom Pence has found noted disagreement. On Russia's invasion, he contrasted his viewwith that of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and Republicans like himwho voice skepticism of U.S. aid to Ukraine as they fend off Russia's invasion.
DeSantis recently called the invasion a "territorial dispute." Pence stressed to Karl that he feels it is crucial to stand with the Ukrainians.
"The war in Ukraine is not a territorial dispute. It's a Russian invasion. It's just the latest instance of Russia attempting to redraw international lines by force," he said, "and the United States of America must continue at a quickened pace to provide the Ukrainian military the support that they need to repel the Russian invasion, and the stakes are that high."
Though he has said that there's no room in the GOP for "Putin apologists," Pence did not further criticize DeSantis by name. However, he did add that "there are voices in our party that don't see a vital American interest in Ukraine, but I see it differently," and he said he found DeSantis' perspective on the matter "wrong."
Karl asked Pence how he felt about Trump's own recent Ukraine comments, calling for a cease-fire that might preserve the current status quo, with Russia in control of some Ukrainian land.
"Whether it's President Trump or others in our party around the country, there are those who see some choice before us other than giving Ukraine the ability to fight and win against the Russian invasion. I believe it's imperative that we stand firm," Pence said, "that we continue to provide the Ukrainian military the resources that they need to repel the Russian invasion. And that will be the fastest way to secure peace and stability in Ukraine and in Eastern Europe."
A potential Trump arrest
There is one major area where Pence and Trump see eye-to-eye: Trump’s possible arrest.
On his social media platform Saturday morning, Trump claimed that he would be taken into custody on Tuesday in connection with the Manhattan district attorney’s investigation into alleged hush money paid to Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 presidential election. Trump also called for his supporters to protest.
He has denied wrongdoing, including denying having an affair with Daniels, but has admitted he paid her -- once defending it as "very common among celebrities and people of wealth."
A Trump spokesperson appeared to walk back his arrest comments in a subsequent statement this weekend, saying in part that there had been no notification that Trump's potential arrest was coming on Tuesday and that "Trump is rightfully highlighting his innocence and the weaponization of our injustice system.”
Pence echoed that to Karl.
“It just feels like a politically charged prosecution here. And I, for my part, I just feel like it's just not what the American people want to see,” he said.
He said he believes Trump is “innocent until proven guilty."
Karl asked Pence about his reaction to Trump calling for protests should he be taken into custody -- which echoed Trump's push for protests leading up to and during Jan. 6.
Pence did not disavow Trump's call, citing that "the American people have a constitutional right to peaceably assemble" though he stressed that any demonstration should occur "peacefully and in a lawful manner."
ABC News has not verified Trump's claims.
While Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg's office had no comment, he wrote in an email to staff obtained by ABC News that “we do not tolerate attempts to intimidate our office or threaten the rule of law in New York."
“I know that President Trump can take care of himself and -- and this process will play out, if in fact an indictment comes down,” Pence told Karl. “But I just have to tell you that the politicization that we see ... is deeply troubling to millions of Americans who want to see the equal treatment before the law.”
